TMB thread:
“Why do the workers act funny about their history?“
(August 12-13, 2008)
Vaudois Wrote,
“Vaudois is the French language term for the Christian group the Waldensians.
Read about them here:
"They have very little in common with Nathan's group.”
i get it Wrote,
“re the Waldensians:
"There are active congregations in Europe, Latin America, and North America. The contemporary and historic Waldensian spiritual heritage includes proclaiming the Gospel, serving among the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience." quote from Wikipedia)
let me repeat....promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work advocating respect for religious diversity....
why they are practically identical! I see it now!
(Archiver’s Note: I think the above post was non-Waldensian, sarcasm since it portrays completely opposing purposes to those of the 2x2s)
come to my church Wrote,
“Brother Nathan! I grew up in the 2x2 but now attend a Waldensian congregation. You are welcome any time.
You can read about our church here:
Waldensian Presbyterian Church
I don't find us at all similar to the 2x2--but of course that is just my opinion.
Waldensians Wrote,
“If anyone is interested in the Waldensians I am sorry to say that I cannot recommend Nathan's website. I have looked it over and saw lots of false assertions that do not jive with known and documented historical facts.
Moreover, these wild assertions have no references to back them up.
I can recommend, however, these books--they are well-researched, documented, contain references and facts.
BOOKS:
- Gabriel Audisio, The Waldensian Dissent: Persecution and Survival, C.1170-c.1570. Claire Davison, translator. Cambridge Medieval Textbooks. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999. Pbk. ISBN: 0521559847. pp.250.
- Euan Cameron, The Reformation of the Heretics: The Waldenses of the Alps, 1450-1560. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1984. Hbk. ISBN: 0198229305. pp.308.
- Euan Cameron, The Waldenses: Rejections of Holy Church in Medieval Europe. Polity Press, 2000. Pbk. ISBN: 0631224971. pp.288.
- Albert De Lange, Die Waldenser - I Valdesi - Les Vaudois - The Waldensians. History Through Images, a European Religious Movement. pp.184, L.40.000, Baden, 2000. Beautiful photographic book which illustrates the Waldensian history. In four languages.
- Alexis Muston, The Israel of the Alps: A Complete History of the Waldenses and Their Colonies. John Montgomery, Translator. Baptist Standard Bearer, 2001. Pbk. ISBN: 1579785395. pp.572.
- Prescot Stephens, The Waldensian Story. A Study in Faith, Intolerance and Survival. Lewes: The Book Guild Ltd, 1998. Hbk. ISBN: 1857762800. pp.398
- Giorgio Tourn, The Waldensians: THE FIRST 800 YEARS (1174-1974). Camillo P. Merlino, Translator. Charles W. Arbuthnot, Editor. Torino, Italy: Claudiana Editrice, 1980.
- Giorgio Tourn and others, You are my witnesses. Torino, Italy: Claudiana Editrice, 1989.
-
J.A. Wylie, History of the Waldenses. Church History, 1985. Hbk. ISBN: 0317382969.”
link to the apostles Wrote,
“BTW, it mystifies me when Nathan says that the Waldensians claim to descend from the apostles--we do not claim any such thing.
It is true that there have been nutcases throughout history who have said things like this--mostly crazy Baptist sects, but these people have been completely discredited by historical facts.
us Waldensians are PROUD of the history that we have--we have no need to embellish, and lie , and pretend that we have a longer history than we do.
We date back to Peter Waldo. My pastor would tell you that--anyone in my congregation would tell you that.
We do not hide our history, we do not lie about it. In this respect alone we are miles above the average 2x2.
We have retained reminders of our history--such as the Waldensian Emblem and The Waldensian Costume. These things do a very good job of "dating" us as they have been around from the beginning of our church--and they do not date back to Rome.”
You are alone Wrote,
“You are the only person I know who says we began in the 3rd century. Perhaps you should convince our pastor and our congregation and all the expert historians, and all the historical records--tell them all that they are wrong and that the date we believe our church was founded is wrong and that you (a non-Waldensian, non-historian, but self-proclaimed expert) are the sole authority on our church history.
I have no desire to embellish. Our origin in the Middle Ages is spectacular. Much better than trying to lie and exaggerate and look foolish.”
welcome to our forum Wrote,
“We already have a forum--you will find the link on our church web site. You can come there anytime.”
the Walds Wrote,
“Nathan, you choose to follow a line put forth by Broadbent which is not true about the Waldensians church. The Waldensians deny that they go back to Jesus in the way you say.
I have seen too much of the stuff you have twisted on the message board the last few days.”
you are still welcome Wrote,
“You are always welcome to come to our church forum.
I doubt any of our church leaders would come here--as I am likely the only one who has ever heard of the 2x2, I don't see why any would be particularly interested in coming to a 2x2 site?”
vere dicere Wrote,
“the original waldenisians came from a valley named waldens. hense their name.
most of them were killed by an ambush from the roman catholics in 1400 s , the history is difficult to trace, and sketchy , there is many parallels (with truth), btween the waldensians, even from the sketchy history, I believe they were believers in truth, and their ministry went in pairs, were called 'uncles', stayed with members homes, had conventions, etc, it is real interesting to read even the sketchy history of them , which was written by outsiders, as they kept no formal history only were thought to have existed for many, many centuries likely before the 3rd century ..
the group that now exists called the Waldensians, is nothing like those before the 1800's, as they do nothing in common, and keep a written history, etc.“
vere sons of God Wrote,
“yes, thanks for reminding us!
That verse puts a dagger to the belief that if we claim to be sons of God, then we are claiming to be God the son (for those that believe that Jesus was making such a claim, when he claimed to be the son of God)”
vere dicere Wrote,
“they did not take a name, the name waldensians, came from the name of the valley, they lived in, very likely these folk had a few scatterings in other lands, (Ireland) , but the work had all but died out, by late 1800's, as far as I can recon. that is likely why Irvine considered starting it up as an experiment, not knowing if it would survive again?”
TMB Thread “Waldensians on TMB”
Waldo Wrote,
“hey Nate,
it is true that for a brief period there were several folks who thought that our group may have had older roots. However, in the 1980's new primary source materials came to light and this theory has been completely discredited. None in our community believe in it.
The family I married into traces their roots back quite a ways--they have old family bibles, burial grounds, diaries etc.
I can tell you that even though there may have been superficial similarities between our groups--these are very superficial indeed! We have had a well-developed liturgy from the beginning--due to our Catholic roots. This includes special confirmation ceremonies where white is worn etc. We have used special ceremonial robes, altars etc from the earliest of confirmed times. BTW, we only met in homes for approx 300 years. Once the persecution stopped, we began to build church buildings. The bible says we should not hide our light under a bushel. Churches need to be out in the open so that all who search can find. It does not make sense to hide a church in times of freedom and acceptance.
Can't hang around here--I am on a lunch break but must work today. All I can say is this theory of antiquity is now known to be completely false. Also--our groups have nothing in common as far as methodology or beliefs.”
