I seem always to be three days and six subjects behind.
We read with interest the Harry Brownlee sermon and now the discussion of Leslie White. Having known Harry since I was a child and having Leslie in our state for many years, I know them both to be very intelligent AND charismatic in their speaking and (at least in private conversation) to be openminded, in comparison to many other workers.
In one-on-one visits with Leslie, you might even be amazed at some of the things you would hear.
Or would "THINK" you are hearing!
He is a MASTER at making you believe that he is ACTUALLY saying what you THINK he is saying!!!
Whatever concerns they might agree with (in private conversation) it cannot be spoken from the platform. There is no single worker who has enough power to take a position that strays radically from the party line.
(This makes it an unchanging way??!!!??)
Leslie's positions have not always received a warm reception from his fellow OVERSEERS. He is a very strong, influential man, and he could take many, many away with him, but I cannot see him doing that.
He has power right where he is.
Regarding what you heard spoken that sounded so new and fresh............from conversations with some who are still in, I know that there are new subjects being mentioned from the platform BECAUSE OF questions and exits caused by the information available through the books and internet.
BUT probably 90% of those sitting in the meetings, simply hear what they expected to hear and don't recognize it as new, because nothing is spelled out. They nod and approve because it came from a worker.
Euphemisms and pretty phrases - we were accustomed to having our beliefs spoonfed to us.
Recently someone close to us, who has been out for 3 or 4 years, had a visit from the overseer of the state. One of the questions put to the worker was, "How is it that we are so sure that everyone else is going to a lost eternity - false churches, etc., - and yet when asked, the "FRIENDS" cannot say with assurance that they are saved?"
The answer (with a small chuckle), "You won't find that now. People are sure."
What has changed?
They didn't know - I don't know.
Around the table that night, they discussed GRACE. He said, "We do believe we are saved by grace." He said that is what he preaches.
(What exactly he meant by that was not explained, because it was not carried any further. But it sure sounded good).
Another example of NON-SPEAK???
At a special meeting this spring, the first hymn given out was "Calvary," along with the statement that "this is the whole reason that we are here."
Sounded good and everyone nodded their heads, but how many understood the message????
For those of us that are either out or questioning, we are listening for that different message - as someone said, "WE LISTEN WITH NEW EARS."
But if you listen closely, "THE MESSAGE IS THE SAME - JUST DRESSED IN NEW CLOTHES."
"Things are changing?? Call us sceptics!
Oh yes, almost forgot the "Cults" part of my post. Just finished reading a book about Jonestown by someone who escaped.........the title is "Seductive Poison." Fascinating!!! Scary!!! It started so simply and escalated to total mindless control!
FWIW, K. Brown
Posted to the Two-by-Two Listed on September 29, 1999
Letter written to Sydney Holt in 2001:
September 24, 2001
Dear Sydney,
Possibly you are aware of the existience of several internet bulletin boards and e-mail lists through which communication has been growing between and among current and former friends and workers.
A professing Seattle area resident participates frequently on one of these forums, using the name, "Big Brother." He has issued the following challenge to some of us who were at one time friends or workers.
He stated, "I think the best way that you or anyone else can help the fellowship improve, is by you coming to the fellowship, and live amongst all of us "friends and workers," and let your Christian light so shine around us so that we can learn from all of you, by your lives, not just by your words posted on this bulletin board. Now, that would make a big difference. Are any of you willing to do this?"
I have responded to him offering to attend fellowship meetings and take part, though I know he has no authority to rule on my offer.
My offer finds basis in several principles which I hold:
First, I accept the friends and workers as my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I accept Christians and pastors in other churches as my brothers and sister in Christ.
Second, I believe in the Deity of Christ and in the historicity of "HIS" incarnation, death and resurrection.
Third, I see value in promoting acceptance and fellowship among Christians across denominational lines.
I would not presume to participate in a meeting without being invited to do so by an elder or worker, but if I were invited to do so, I would be unequivocal in expressing the three principles I mentioned above. Various friends and even a couple workers I know, have, in the spirit of friendship and fellowship in Christ, expressed their support of these three principles. Some of us are hearing claims that this is a growing trend among some friends and workers, although I am unsure if reports of such a trend are fully true.
If you give me permission to do so, I am happy to attend some meetings and express my support of such a trend and of the above principles.
Sincerely,
P.A.
Following is Sydney's Reply:
October 4, 2001
Dear P_ _ _,
Thanks for your recent letter regarding what "Big Brother" put on the internet. I had never even heard of him/her until this week when Dennis Jacobsen wrote me a 12 page letter which he put on the internet after writing me.
I have no idea who "Big Brother" is!!
Regarding your attending the home meetings: You are always welcome to come and listen and sing, but we can't leave the door open for you to take part in the meetings as it would cause offense and a great difference in what we understand God's way for mankind is. We do not (the word "not" is underlined) accept those of different denominations as one in spirit or belief with our fellowship.
I'm sure you have had some lonely weeks since D_ _ _ _ passed away and please accept my sympathy.
Sincerely,
Sydney
No Ongoing Instruction To Go In Pairs!
Even now, an individual could go forth as the workers CLAIM that they do, and as John Long used to write about: ON FAITH LINES.
It would not be necessary to go in pairs, because it should be abundantly clear to anyone who ACTUALLY reads and thinks about the only times Jesus told disciples to do that, they were on short-term missions for a specific reason, and went according to the custom of having a witness along when a proclamation or claim was made. They also went into a specific venue, and not into specified others.
People who can read the scripture and think about it, would realize that evangelists/apostles went alone, went in threes' and other sized groups.
People who claim that is not the case need to read the book of Acts, either again or maybe for the first time.
That would include present workers.
Of course, there are other indications in the New Testament showing there was no ongoing instruction to go in pairs.
It's okay to go in pairs, just not required, and that certainly isn't a litmus test as to whether workers are "'God's true servants."
The "poverty" requirement is also not something that will pass muster based on scripture. However, if some feel called to live a life that is as free of materialism as possible, that's okay, too. Just not something that proves one is God's true servant, or moreso than the next evangelist or spiritual leader.
A person could feel moved to quit his or her secular work and go forth to seek those who do not know God as their loving Creator, and do not know of Christ's purpose in dwelling among humans on earth and dying for the remission of sins and to implement the New Covenant. Such a person, or such a couple, or a small group of persons with the same purpose, could, in fact, go forth on faith lines. If they were truly called of God and relying on and obeying God's Word, they would tell the complete and exact truth about HOW THEY ARE FUNDED and what resources in general, they use. They would seek people who are not now in covenant with God and help them know of the standing invitation for persons to be reconciled to God through Christ.
They would not need to tell them that they must worship and listen to exhortation and exhort one another and have spiritual study and group prayer only in homes, or only with others who had heard the Good News through those particular evangelists.
Such evangelists, in our time, would not need to establish an organization or join with an existing organization. They would not need to go to conventions of people who "heard the gospel" the same way and from evangelists somehow affiliated with one another.
To the extent they received money, the evangelists would not need to be nervous about talking about that, and they would have no problem keeping track of the amounts and revealing it as law as basic honesty requires.
If such evangelists had a home base, such as their old room in their parents' home, or another room always available to them "back home," they would have no problem saying that. If they qualify for and use government services, they would be frank about that.
People could do all that the Two-by-Two workers make such a point of in describing their "itinerant ministry," to the extent it has any Biblical foundation and way beyond.
- They could do it without secrecy,
- they could do it truthfully, and
- they could do it without being part of the Two-by-Two's or any similar institution.
Posted on the Two-by-Two List by Marti Knight on December 14, 2005
R_ _ _ _ wrote:
Hi Everyone,
I guess I could sum this up in a few words.
Is this what is referred to as selling one's soul???
The workers could be out there saving souls and telling people the good news of freedom in Christ. Instead, they are leading people away from Christ and the body of believers. How So Very Sad!!
- In other words, how many lies do you have to tell to be a liar???
- Who is the father of lies and deception?
- Who are these people following anyway???
R. W.
Posted on the Two-by-Two List by Robin W. on December 14, 2005
Enron and World Com were not set up for the purpose of defrauding people, breaking laws, enriching certain officers and executives at the expense of stockholders and customers. Nevertheless, those abuses and crimes happened and many people were harmed, and some of them will never be made whole.
Some individuals who were involved and who climbed to positions of power were greedy, dishonest, venal. And the companies used many methods to keep how they operated out of the view of the arms of government that are supposed to safeguard the public and the stockholders. They used tricky maneuvers to deceive even their own auditors, because some in positions of power were not doing their jobs and others were part of the scheme. Too many board members didn't ask questions when they should have.
- Too many went along to get along!!!
- Too many were happy to say, "I got mine!," and as to those who were being ripped off, "That's their problem."
So it is not a matter of whether the founder started the Two-by-Two's for the purpose of deceiving or harming people, or as a racket. It is a matter of whether the Two-by-Two denomination is open and above board, and whether there is accountability to their own membership and to society at large. And the very important matter of whether they exploit the power they have over others.
Are claims TRUE that are made by the Two-by-Two's, concerning who they are and what they do and how they do it???
In many regards, they are not.
Do they "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's???"
- NO, they DO NOT!!
Do they go forth as Jesus sent the 12 and the 70??
- NO, they DO NOT!!
Are they a non-denominational group with no organizational structure?
- NO, they ARE NOT!!
Are they a movement "rather than an organization?"
- NO, they DO NOT!!
I don't know how anyone can claim that seriously, since the Two-by-Two's have all the essential characteristics of an organization and I doubt that it is even part of a movement larger than itself, let alone BEING a movement. From the beginning, it differentiated itself from the general "great awakening" movement in Protestantism and sought converts FROM the movement as a whole, as well as from Christianity generally.
- If an organization has serious and persistent defects in its structure,
- If it has a culure that tolerates abuse,
- If it has no mechanism for keeping leaders accountable to the membership,
- If it is not completely open and above board in its internal actions, it lends itself to wrongdoing!!!
For some, going into the work might seem like an act of great self-sacrifice. Those who see it that way probably are people who are very keen on what they associate with marriage, home, family and career.
But there are some who see the life of a worker as being ideal in many ways.
Those may not set a high value of having a covenant relationship with another person, and maintaining that key relationship through thick and thin.
They may not want all the responsibilities of marriage and parenthood,
- the responsibilities of earning their livelihood, paying the bills,
- supporting themselves and their dependents,
- keeping their homes repaired and heated,
- owning a vehicle,
- paying insurance and upkeep on it,
- making car payments,
- taking care of their parents when old age or infirmity comes,
- saving up for vacations or trips or going without...........
- paying health insurance premiums.................
Posted on the Two-by-Two List by Marti Knight on December 14, 2005
