The Last Straw - Posted from the TMB

Thread from Truth Message Board

We encourage you to share your "The Last Straw" moment with us and I will add it here. My contact information is located in the top menu bar under, "Contact Us." Or register and post your story in the Comment Box at the end of this page.

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From the 2x2 List on June 6th, 1999:

The Ex-movement has had an impact on the workers to the extent that they are trying to make themselves look orthodox and because they go at it so slowly and subtly, some of the friends will think they have always believed/preached things like grace.

I do see a little humor in all this.

The EX-Movement is providing doctrinal information for the workers to slip in as suits their agenda. And on the flip side, the workers are telling the "friends" NOT to view the evil stuff about the "truth" on the internet.

The workers' advertising of the websites has been MUCH appreciated.

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"The Last Straw"

Posted from the TMB in 2007

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November 1st, 2007
Posted by “Dan S.”

For those of you that have left the 2x2s, was there a straw that broke the camels back? In other words, was there something that made you say; "Okay. That does it. I'm done."?

What were the circumstances surrounding your "AHA moment" when you realized that you no longer wanted to stay in Truth?

I'm asking this because I just got this e-mail from a friend (reproduced with permission, names changed to protect the innocent):

Dan:

Thought I'd drop a line to say Kate and I talked it over and we're done (feels odd to say that).

During the after meeting chit-chat tonight Ralph was talking about getting a co-worker to Gospel meetings and told us their conversation. He said he described us as Christians. As soon as he said that Sara [5 year old daughter] looked at me and said "We aren't" Christians are we daddy?" If that wasn't bad enough, Doris [elderly lady] said "Not really honey," then muttered something about "worldlings".

Then a mini-debate erupted over whether or not we should call ourselves "Christians". Kate and I just looked at each other. We were shocked and when it was all over we realized we hadn't said a word in our amazement.

On the way home we agreed we have no business in a church that has to argue over whether it's Christian. Honestly.

It's kind of a relief but now the tough part starts. When we go out Saturday I'll have lots of questions for you about your exit - telling relatives, workers, etc.

afn 

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November 1st, 2007
Reply #2 Posted by “Nicole M.”

It was a long process for me - Many little things that I couldn't reconcile with scripture - But I hung onto "this is the right way" Finally I read a letter someone had written to a worker and it resonated with me - Bringing many of these things together that for so long I had questioned.

Things like - outward appearance and is it really as important as the "friends and workers" place it. Like how Older workers Nursing home stays really are paid for versus what is told to the friends.......I can not remember it all.....It got me thinking.......Then Praying - I wasn't sure I could stay in the 2x2's anymore but I still had this belief "This is the right way" and if I left I would not have a relationship with God and I would go to Hell. I prayed and Prayed and Prayed and told God all my heart and feelings that were going on about this. I was willing to stay if that was the only way I could have a relationship with Him. But the unexpected happened. As I prayed and shared all that was in my heart with Him, he drew me closer and closer to Him, taking me away from the 2x2's and the system. He drew me closer until I let go of Meetings and knew I would never return and at that moment I felt His arms wrap around me and fill me completely with His Love - The first time I ever felt His love.......And then I was filled with overwhelming Joy.......That Joy does not go away....even now in telling this part ......It consumes me.......

Wow......referring to the letter you posted......What a conversation to have......It certainly would be disconcerting to even question if you are a Christian or not......

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November 1st 2007
Reply # 4 - Posted by “Aussie Gal”

I had several AHA moments... but it's taken close to 8 years to finally be out and know that I'm not going back.

First reason was the judgmental attitudes of many of the "friends" that I witnessed here. The self-righteous attitude IMO was sickening. The gossip is hurtful and I've had plenty of gossip spread about me that was untrue, unfounded and yet people would judge me because of the untruths.

Second reason was the overwhelming fear. I realized that I didn't love God... I was outright terrifyingly SCARED of Him! Not a healthy way to live.

Third reason was the explanation that was given to me that they were the ONLY way. All others were going to hell and eternal damnation.

Fourth reason is I could see how many things were changing. There seemed to be no charity. The only people getting money was the workers - that money was not shared with people that were less fortunate. I saw a few poor people that suffered dreadfully - I don't think they're in the 2x2 church any longer. Yet my senior worker brother has the latest laptop computer, mobile phone, money galore and the latest gadgets. To me it just seems to wrong when they're meant to be "homeless" preachers with no worldly possessions.

Fifth reason is I could finally see that I didn't know much about the Bible or God's words. I knew the "unspoken rules" of the workers... but that was about it.
 

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November 1st, 2007
Reply #7 Posted by “ecarg”

WHY I LEFT? My experience is similar to “aussiegal.”

1.  Being terrified of God was not healthy. I didn't feel that I could talk to God about what I needed to talk to him about the most. Like my struggles and sins. I was not taught about God's love EVER. It wasn't until I joined a different Church, that I felt God's amazing love and grace.

2.  I was sexually abused by a worker.

3.  Outward appearance didn't make since to me. My inner being needed worked on, not my outward being.

4.  Judgmental attitude was a biggie. I knew amazing people that didn't go to meeting. I couldn't imagine them going to hell.

5.  I've never seen outreach to the poor, hurting, needy. Ever. If you don't go to meeting, then there is no outreach from the 2x2's.

6.  Theology. It's weak.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 9 Posted by “Bert”

One man's last straw with false religion was when his search for the truth took him right to a high ranking ecclesiastical figure. He told us he was ushered through the gates of this great man's home by servants, and wondered at the power and opulence of his priestly living.

A lady in our church told of her last straw when she had been sick for some while. When she returned to her church and explained she was told her absence had not been noticed.

Another man told how his priest publicly scorned others. One day scorned "those two wolves" who had just come to the town and set up a tent.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 14 Posted by “Out Several Years”

Copied from another post:

"It was a long process for me - Many little things that I couldn't reconcile with scripture -"

Same for me. I began closely watching what the workers were saying-how it agreed with the scripture. I wasn't smart enough to pick up some Bible commentaries or other translations of the Bible. I stuck to the KJV and plowed through. Many things I heard didn't line up with the scripture. This went on for several years.

I eventually got and read different translations, but certainly didn't tell my meeting. I began to search more diligently the things that were bothering me.

I'd leave meeting upset over things that I'd heard spoken that were in direct opposition to what the scripture said. I began to dread going to meeting and found excuses to miss.

Eventually I heard about William Irvine. I don't care that he was the founder of this group but that I was directly lied to by the workers. I was told time and time again that this way originated at the shores of Galilee. There was a direct line of workers that could be traced to the dark ages then the trail was lost and picked up again.
It wasn't that I cared about William Irvine but the fact that it was lied about and covered up. I began meditating and praying desperately for God to show me what he wanted from my life.

As the leaving process continued I experienced huge relief. It was like an elephant was off my shoulders. I could be a believer following the NT teachings-love God and love your neighbor.

I could do out-reach beyond the confines of the meeting people. I could fellowship with other believers. I didn't have to be so judgmental. I didn't have to try to sugar coat anything. I didn't have to try to appear perfect.

I am not to the point yet where I can say that I was glad for the time spent in meetings. I'm hoping that some day I'll see good that came from this experience.

There wasn't one big thing that drove me out. It was a series over the course of a number of years. Bit by bit God showed me and finally the scales fell off. It is a wonderful experience to truly see God and to be able to read the scriptures without putting the meeting doctrinal spin on.

Joyously praising and worshiping,
God the father,
God the son,
God the Holy Spirit,
 

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 15 Posted by “12 Straw Program”

I'd professed for nearly 20 years. I'd always questioned things about Truth in my heart but never dared voice them to anyone. There were hundreds of little things that just didn't make sense when compared with scripture and what I was being led to believe by the Holy Spirit. Yet for some reason I just couldn't shake the feeling that "the way" was "the only way".

Then began my 12 straw program from God.

1. I became increasingly troubled with the non-scriptural aspects of Truth. I didn't know what to do.

2. God gave me a message in a child's testimony "If God is ignoring our prayers, it's because we're praying to ourselves. We need to pray to God." I prayed to God for help like never before.

3. I heard a rumor about Tim Severud. He'd spent time with my children. I wanted to know more.

4. For the first time in my life, I searched the Internet for something related to Truth. I Googled "Tim Severud".

5. I found this site. I read about Tim Severud.

6. I followed a link to the TTT website.

7. William Irvine. Wow. So much started to make sense.

8. Lies about William Irvine. Wow. How wrong. My eyes began to open.

9. Excommunications. Wow. How very wrong. My vision improved.

10. Exclusivism. Wow. How so very wrong blasphemous. My eyes were open.

11. Came back to TMB and read more. My eyes were open and I could see clearly but my heart still questioned what I'd seen in straws 8, 9, and 10.

12. Bert and GloryInTruth. Spent 4 non-stop days reading what they'd written on the TMB and Bert's website.

Problem solved. Issue resolved. Matter fixed. Disease cured. Thank God.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 18 Posted by “youth”

There wasn't a last straw for me. It was a slow process of exit, still in the exiting process. I work about 80 hours a week so my attendance at meeting hasn't been what it used to be this past year. My exit involved deciding that I really had no desire to marry into Truth, raise my kids this way, etc.

I woke up on a Sunday morning (the first Sunday in August) and decided that I was going to get my ears pierced. I called my close girlfriends and off to the mall we went (I am in my late 20's). For the next month or so, (I usually work till 2 or 3am at my second job) I would sleep in on Sunday's, then go to a casual brunch with my friends around noon. I love Sundays more than ever now. I couldn't take my earrings out for the first few weeks so I figured I would miss a few meetings. Then August rolled into September and October came and went. My only day to sleep in is Sunday and every night of the week after I leave the office I head to my job in a restaurant and I never get home before 1am. I have had perfect peace with my 3 month departure from meetings. I also didn't go to convention for the first time ever this year.

A young couple in my Sunday meeting and their kids stopped coming recently. But I don't know why. What if I said I have peace about not going to meetings and that I don't miss them? I have respect for the Truth, but don't really buy into it. My parents don't know yet, and I am very nervous about how and when they will find out.

I didn't leave meetings so that I could get earrings. It was just a part of reaching my point where I decided I was done. When you are done, you are done. There isn't always a last straw.

 

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 19 Posted by “To Youth”

I know several women that used their new earrings as sort of an "announcement" of their decision.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 20 Posted by “ScholarGal”

I hope you find the courage to inform your parents BEFORE they find out from someone else.

Recently I had a long conversation with a man who stopped going to meetings, informed the local workers of the decision, but couldn't figure out how to break the news to his parents. The network of the friends and workers is a "VERY" small world. Within a few months, his grandparents were informed by a visitor traveling through who happened to stop at their house for Sunday meeting. So, his parents found out because the grandparents called and asked, "Did you know your son stopped going to meetings?"

In retrospect, this man says that the way he handled the situation was the worst mistake he's ever made in his life.

My advice... If you can't summon the courage to tell your parents in person or on the phone, send them a short email or a note card. It doesn't have to explain your reasons, just that you decided meetings weren't right for you. Tell them you wanted them to find out from you, before they hear it from someone else.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 21 Posted by “Sojourner Truth ”

Like others, the fear of God cultivated in the "Truth" was not of the healthy kind. In fact, it stymied my relationship with God.

I also was aware that charity in the "Truth" did not extend beyond themselves as a rule.

Favoritism was rampant. Rules were enforced upon some, and a blind eye turned toward others; it depended upon who you were. What was once seriously frowned upon suddenly became okay when one of the favored friends (one with money or related to the workers) needed to do it (i.e. divorce, psychiatric counseling).

And as others have stated the self-righteous attitude that they were the one true way. Even if "outsiders" could give very insightful, scriptural messages, they really didn't know what they were talking about.

The heavy, slow depressing manner in which the hymns were sung as if everyone was living under a 5 ton weight. No joyful noise there.

After I left, not one worker inquired of me why I left. They asked my husband but never me. I don't think my leaving was such a big deal to anyone of them as long as my children still attended. And when William Irvine became public it was just extra nails in the coffin.

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 22 Posted by “Lynn C.”

In meeting, we only used the word Christian when talking to outsiders but we did not really call ourselves Christian. We were in fact, professing. Christians were worldly people. I think this child told the truth. This is the belief we were brought up with and this was the belief that was being instilled into this child, that we are not Christians. It is only as we get older, do we begin to learn that we say one thing to outsiders and believe another. In other words, we try to appear to be Christian when in fact we believe we are not.

What made me leave? I went to a Baptist church, and my eyes were opened you might say, and as I read the Bible, I began to see that what was written in the Bible was not what we believed in meetings. I had only interpreted the Bible in terms of what the workers had taught us and what I was brought up to believe, but in fact this was not the Gospel. What I heard in the Baptist Church was the Gospel.

Then I found out we were started by man and not Jesus as I had been taught and I really began to see through the whole thing. A Christan is a follower of Christ, who believes that Jesus is the way, and that we should not believe that any church or group of men is the way, but that Jesus only is the way. Our church became "the way", instead of Jesus.

The message of salvation is Jesus, "not a group."

 

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 23 Posted by “movin' on up”

I live in the Midwest and I remember hearing at a special meeting back in 2002 when one of the workers said "it's okay for us to call ourselves Christians".

I was stunned and I remember my family talking about it like it was some "new" thing that had changed and it troubled us (that something was "changing" (evil word in Truth)) but we knew that it had to be a right thing.

Thank God those days are wwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy behind us now!!!

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November 2nd, 2007
Reply # 29 Posted by “piggy”

Reading GIT and Nate Barker's posts made me think over and over and to read between the lines how unhappy they sound. They try hard to convince themselves they are right and in the only true way. The two of them really opened my eyes to see I wanted out.
 
I want to thank both of them for opening my eyes.

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply # 31 Posted by “juju”

One of my AHA moments came when I realized that I didn't feel I could speak honestly in testimony time. "They" wouldn't have accepted what I had to say. At the time I quit, I had 4 very small children and a lot of my testimonies were about parenting, and the spiritual aspects of raising kids.............I would have absolute clarity while meditating on my testimony at home, then be afraid to share once I got there.......

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply #32 Posted by “Kathy Lewis”

It is not surprising that the Catholics and the 2x2s share the same quandary. ....Are they Christian? They have so many of the same problems. They worship something other than God. They uphold an unmarried ministry which creates all kinds of sexual problems for them. They rule with legalism and tradition. The church is more powerful and overrides scripture. Scripture is not taught.

Look at Italy, Europe, Ireland and South America. Catholicism destroys families, law and social structures because the people depend on the Pope and the church to dictate their lives. They can't and don't take responsibility for their behavior....they blame others.

They have extreme anger problems which leads to bloodshed.

2x2s also have many of the same problems. The group as a whole does not have enough power in society to lead to bloodshed but if they were as populous as the Catholics they probably would.

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply #33 Posted by “B. J. Lewis”

Lots of Ah-ha moments last few years going to meetings--

My final straw was realizing I did not want my children to be raised the way I was-- and they were getting old and it was time to get out-- why would I do something that I wanted to get my kids as far away from as possible?

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply # 34 Posted by “Recent Arriver”

Reading through this thread I can only say (in response to the last straw issue) that many of the experiences that others have recorded here have been my experience too.

My leaving the fellowship has taken place just in the past month but in my heart, this has been an ongoing process.

Perhaps the heaviest "straw" is that of the exclusivism. A couple workers told me just before my formal exit that I was drifting from God and in a few short years I would be far, far away from Him. Their reason? Because I remarked to them about experiencing/recognizing a Christ-like spirit in "outsiders" that I have become friends with. These 2 workers told me my thoughts were the works of the Deceiver. IMHO this borders on blasphemy.

I have recognized the legalistic and traditional controls within the fellowship for several years but when the situation involves something serious like Blasphemy, I am outa' here!

RA

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply # 39 Posted by “Hmmmmmmmm”

ST,

After I left, not one worker inquired of me why I left. They asked my husband but never me. I don't think my leaving was such a big deal to anyone of them as long as my children still attended. And when William Irvine became public it was just extra nails in the coffin.

How long did your children go to meetings after you quit? When did you learn of William Irvine?

I am still amazed that there is an issue over this William Irvine thing... it is strange to have known of it for over 40 years and some still say that it was hid.. and I grew up in the Midwest.

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November 3rd, 2007
Reply #40 Posted by “Juliette”

I live in Minnesota. My mother still believes that "there have always been workers" and does not know of the history with William Irvine, etc. I mentioned it to her once, but she did not want to know more.

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November 4th, 2007
Reply #42 Posted by “Recent Arriver”

hmmmmmmm guest said:

"I am still amazed that there is an issue over this William Irvine thing... it is strange to have known of it for over 40 years and some still say that it was hid.. and I grew up in the Midwest. "

I have lived in the Midwest USA nearly 40 years and it is less then 2 years ago that I found out about WI.

This was the switch that turned on the light for me.

I think there are a LOT of people still in the dark about William Irvine. Apparently it is a regional thing. There are a lot of folks in the fellowship around here who do not know. I have talked with some of them and this is how I base my observation.

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November 4th, 2007
Reply #43 Posted by “Sojourner Truth ”

Dear Hmmmmm,

My spouse, who was angry and frustrated with me for leaving The Truth, continued to go to meetings with our children for a number of years. Ironically, when he was told of the sites on the Internet by one of the friends, a good ten years after I left, he then decided the Truth was a lie and also left; much more vehemently than I ever was against the Truth.

Well, you must have been one of the lucky few to know about William Irvine. In the great northeast, where I am from, it wasn't known at large until it was put in the newspaper at the same time the issue of the Altamont Convention not being up to safety code was publicized. I called my mother the morning I read of it and she emphatically told me it was all a lie and whoever gave the newspaper that information didn't know what they were talking about. She hadn't read the paper herself. She happened to be working for one of the friends in their home taking care of their elderly parent for them at that time. And though the article wouldn't be in her local paper, these friends subscribed to the larger city paper where the article was published. Mom asked to see the paper and they reluctantly brought it out (they had hidden it). This was very hard for my mother to accept (which she believed only after she was told it was true by other friends), as we were taught that one of the signs of a false church was that its beginning began with a man. She has now readjusted her thinking and has chosen to forget what we were taught so there is no reconciliation needed and she doesn't need to think too hard about it. Needless to say, I had already left The Truth and that's why I say it was just "extra nails" in an already sealed coffin.

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November 4th, 2007
Reply #44 Posted by “Gem”

To ST..I am also from the northeast and didn't know about William Irvine until a couple (?) years ago...it was never brought up....
I do remember hearing about a stir caused by something in a newspaper but I was married and gone by then...
 

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November 6th, 2007
Reply #47 Posted by “A Believer”

I would say there are about 3 in my family that know about meetings being started by someone, while the other 15 or so think it goes right back to Jesus. There are several that have heard about William Irvine but say it is a lie made up by enemies of the truth.

I was told by a couple of people that they had always known about William Irvine but were told not to say anything.

I am wondering about the people who say that they have always known about William Irvine or the "way" having been started by a man. How could they sit through meetings with the workers preaching that they have no earthly founder, and that it was not started by men like other churches? How could they sit through meetings hearing that if they knew otherwise?

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November 6th, 2007
Reply #48 Posted by “Recent Arriver”

A believer guest said:

"I am wondering about the people who say that they have always known about William Irvine or the “way” having been started by a man? How could they sit through meetings with the workers preaching that they have no earthly founder, and that it was not started by men like other churches? How could they sit through meetings hearing that if they knew otherwise? "

This is one of the main reasons I stopped going to Gospel Meetings right after learning of William Irvine.

Learning of the existence of an earthly founder explained for me why my previous understanding of "only-one-way-ism" and other Biblical doctrines I had been raised to believe, were not correct.

RA

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November 6th, 2007
Reply #49 Posted by “Ken Coolidge”

For us it was a combination of things all touched on in other posts but the real litmus test was LOVE and the lack of it and the criticism of those showing LOVE in the world.
 

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November 6th, 2007
Reply #50 Posted by “JH62”

Just like everyone else, it was a multitude of straws for me, one upon another. I think maybe the last straw though, was when one person in meeting told of how there is no such thing as unconditional love. They said the bible never mentions unconditional love, and God does not possess unconditional love. Their point was that there are conditions we need to meet to gain God's love.

That was the last straw.

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January 31st, 2008

I had been deciding to leave the 2x2s for five years before I finally did.

What put me over the edge was my husband had an affair with a woman the age of my oldest daughter. This was so shameful, the fact that the workers did not know how to address moral issues, they all acted as if it were my fault. I was to go to this person and confront her (some sort of reconciliation) Needless to say, it was the worst kind of spiritual abuse. He, my ex-husband, wanted me to continue to be friends with her. This is just a small sample of abuses I suffered being in this group after 24 years.

I was hospitalized upon leaving, I basically deprogrammed myself through books, and some counseling.

Thanks for listening,

Barbara Bakutis

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